Wow. Not sure I've ever seen more inappropriate use of video to drum up business.

[BRAD]

Originally Posted by patdcop

Gregg, with all due respect, even officers that have not been in “shoot/don’t shoot” scenarios do not know how they will react. I would not expect anyone to explain what was going through the officers mind during these events.

If you study police shootings (and every officer does in the academy) you will find most shootings occur with in 3 to 7 feet of the officer. In fight or flight situations most officers do not remember seeing (focusing) on anything after the threat. That is to say, they only see body mass. This is the reason they train with silhouette targets; no facial features, no arms or legs. They are trained to hit center mass.

In regards to Dr. Ignatius Piassa, he is a combat master and instructor. So what the does that really mean. It means he is good at the range and has no street experience of any kind. As a former chiropractor and scientologist he took his love of guns and started a market for training civilians. Later he was sued and settled for 8 million bucks. Since he has no “real world” experience, you have to consider the source.
Because of that lack of experience I find the last part of his video disturbing. Is there ever a reason to play back the death rattle of an officer? For those of us that have been in the profession or who are currently in the profession, we may have a different opinion than you on both the training and the use of the video.

I gotta go with the voice of EXPERIENCE yet again. Applause. This makes sense. You're the new leader.

[patdcop]

Originally Posted by BRAD

You're the new leader.

Oh, no you don't............I don't want it. Had my 15 mins of fame several times over and several years back. With more years behind me than in front of me, my job is to enjoy the company of others and look for the opportunity to share good times.

Remember: It takes 42 muscles to frown...........and only 4 to reach out and bitc_ slap someone.

[BRAD]

Originally Posted by patdcop

Oh, no you don't............I don't want it. Had my 15 mins of fame several times over and several years back. With more years behind me than in front of me, my job is to enjoy the company of others and look for the opportunity to share good times.

Remember: It takes 42 muscles to frown...........and only 4 to reach out and bitc_ slap someone.

We look at life, mostly, the same way.

[greggrthomas]

Originally Posted by patdcop

Gregg, with all due respect, even officers that have not been in “shoot/don’t shoot” scenarios do not know how they will react.

Pat, with all due respect, even normal citizens find themselves in “shoot/don’t shoot” scenarios from time to time and the same can be said for them as well.

Originally Posted by patdcop

I would not expect anyone to explain what was going through the officers mind during these events.

I find this an odd statement, isn't that a field where you have some experience? I would expect an expert in police psychology to have the ability to certainly be able to try and explain that.
Note: I'm not implying that you are such an expert, only that I would expect such a person to have that capacity. I would definitely except the officer to try and articulate what was going through his mind during the event, at the time of his debriefing.

Originally Posted by patdcop

If you study police shootings (and every officer does in the academy) you will find most shootings occur with in 3 to 7 feet of the officer. In fight or flight situations most officers do not remember seeing (focusing) on anything after the threat. That is to say, they only see body mass. This is the reason they train with silhouette targets; no facial features, no arms or legs. They are trained to hit center mass.

I don't study police shootings and have no reasons to disagree with your statement, I don't quite see the relevance tho. The training I have taken has also focused on center mass aiming as well.

Originally Posted by patdcop

In regards to Dr. Ignatius Piassa, he is a combat master and instructor. So what the does that really mean. It means he is good at the range and has no street experience of any kind. As a former chiropractor and scientologist he took his love of guns and started a market for training civilians. Later he was sued and settled for 8 million bucks. Since he has no “real world” experience, you have to consider the source.

I take it you don't like the guy nor see his training as valuable. OK, but again where's the relevance to the subject of this thread? Are we going to segue (thanks James) into a debate about the ownership and value of the training at Front Sight?

Originally Posted by patdcop

Because of that lack of experience I find the last part of his video disturbing. Is there ever a reason to play back the death rattle of an officer?

Is this lack of experience, his street experience or his “real world” experience or a combination of the two? I think this question would be better put to him and not me, as I don't know the man and have no idea as to his reasons.

Originally Posted by patdcop

For those of us that have been in the profession or who are currently in the profession, we may have a different opinion than you on both the training and the use of the video.

I would agree with that. And it would appear the inverse of that applies as well, my experience and opinion does differ.

I've never been one to hide from the ugliness of life, the video reflects part of that ugliness, tragic to be sure. But if it's display in this situation has a positive effect on the future outcome for someone else, I find that of value.

[BRAD]

Originally Posted by greggrthomas

I've never been one to hide from the ugliness of life, the video reflects part of that ugliness, tragic to be sure. But if it's display in this situation has a positive effect on the future outcome for someone else, I find that of value.

Right, but........you also have to admit, that your viewpoint doesn't line up with the status quo, or even most of your peers most of the time, which is why you've found yourself on the awkward end of "debates" at least the last several years that I've been here, and also why you've managed to create a "haters club" as you like to call it. That's not a negative or positive attribute in this case........but it is fact.


This "display" having an effect on someone's future outcome is highly unlikely, and not what I think most folk would deem reasonable. So why post the video to promote a business? To mask ineffective training/communication somewhere else? I refuse to to believe there's not a better way, regardless of the business being promoted...........Well, unless it's one of those Faces of Death type videos. That speaks for itself.

[greggrthomas]

Sometime I just sit silently and it writes itself.

Originally Posted by BRAD

Gregg........I don't need to go into any depth here, I've made myself a real douche picking on Gregg, and it's petered itself out on my part.

[BRAD]

Sometimes. Now, if you're done......get back on task.

[patdcop]

Originally Posted by greggrthomas

Pat, with all due respect, even normal citizens find themselves in “shoot/don’t shoot” scenarios from time to time and the same can be said for them as well.

I find this an odd statement, isn't that a field where you have some experience? I would expect an expert in police psychology to have the ability to certainly be able to try and explain that.
Note: I'm not implying that you are such an expert, only that I would expect such a person to have that capacity. I would definitely except the officer to try and articulate what was going through his mind during the event, at the time of his debriefing.

I don't study police shootings and have no reasons to disagree with your statement, I don't quite see the relevance tho. The training I have taken has also focused on center mass aiming as well.

I take it you don't like the guy nor see his training as valuable. OK, but again where's the relevance to the subject of this thread? Are we going to segue (thanks James) into a debate about the ownership and value of the training at Front Sight?

Is this lack of experience, his street experience or his “real world” experience or a combination of the two? I think this question would be better put to him and not me, as I don't know the man and have no idea as to his reasons.

I would agree with that. And it would appear the inverse of that applies as well, my experience and opinion does differ.

I've never been one to hide from the ugliness of life, the video reflects part of that ugliness, tragic to be sure. But if it's display in this situation has a positive effect on the future outcome for someone else, I find that of value.

I am sorry, guess I was expecting to much when I made the post. I will make it simple.

The guy is using a police involved shooting to scare people into getting better training with a gun. I call that fear mongering. The average citizen would not engage such a person in the video as the police would.

I have no knowlage of the guy other than the reports of his actions. http://www.onpointnews.com/NEWS/fire...es-for-8m.html

Our prior perceptions direct our responses to fear and stress. No one knows how another person will respond or what goes through thier mind. Psychologist deal in probablities. It serves no purpose (in this case) to speculate.

Again, Piassa has never faced another person, according to him, so for him to imply better training would result in a different outcome is a strech. Using that video is stupid in my opinion. For example it implys you should shoot at the first sign of a deadly threat and he will train you to do this. This is wear I call BS. If I had shot every suspect that displayed a deadly threat I would be considered a mass murder or a serial killer.

I would suggest you google combat shooting courses, officer involved shootings, and police firearms training. I doubt you will find many simiularities.

Piazza's intrest appears to be self interest. There is nothing inherently wrong with this idea unless it significantly harms others or defrauds them out of money. Simply makes everything he does suspect based on his history.

In law enforcement today there is a 50% turn over rate every two years. Regardless of the training, about half of the officers discover they do not have what it takes to deal with this population day in and day out. They are the smart ones. Being trained in firearms does not dictate how one responds to crisis situations. Most of us freeze psychologicaly and physiologicaly until we can process the threat, formulate and action and put that action in to motion. This response at best is 1.5 seconds and can last up to 6 seconds.

I am glad you responded and I appriciate your opinion in this matter. My opinion is different than yours. Doesn't make either one of us right.

ignore the spelling as i didn't spell check

[mercutio80]

Fear mongering is the status quo regardless of the side. What's the first thing that happens when there's a Columbine style killing now? The gun types hold press conferences saying "if only one person had been armed, this wouldn't have happened," while the anti-gun types hold conferences stating, "this never would have happened if we had gun control."

Both sides use a horrible event to try and further their cause. I don't like it when either side does it.

[BRAD]

I agree with that.

[nomoreusmc]

The vid is for advertisement, and for shock and awe. It works, and the advertising guy made his money because we are talking about it right now! Now I don't think a fatal shooting is good advertisement but it worked!

Even most self described "gun nuts" can not/will not fire, and if they do it's wildly. You have to be trained to properly use a tool. The tool in this case happens to be a firearm. If you ccw it should be mandatory that you take a class like this, tactical weapon handling isn't like the movies, it's a good way to kill yourself. How do you change a mag under fire? What's muzzle awareness and how is it delt with on a tactical level when you have to cross paths with a friendly? How do you aim when your in an adrenaline daze? What are the 3 c's? What will a bullet really go through? Do you really think about that before it happens?

It's called muscle memory and it's learned by repetition, like in a class. I taught the tactical weapons class at Stone Bay range in NC (Camp Lejune)after I got injured and I hope I helped save the lives of hundreds of my fellow Marines. I know your gonna say "you where in the military where that training is necessary" True and if your gonna carry a gun around town in a tuck holster should you be guided by what you think might work, or are you going to take a class that's tactics are based on a hundred years of combat experience? Marketing is shameless, good class though.

[Neanderthal]

Crime thrives on no fear. Going back to the video, while I'm totally in the officers corner, way too many ineffective shots were fired. Where did all those bullets go? FrontSights leader may not be combat-seasoned, but it seems a lot of law enforcement folks sign up for his training, from ex-law enforcement personnel.
Never have been a LEO, but I have to ask how FrontSight gained access to the video footage? At this point, again without knowing how the process is suppose to work, I'm guessing that after the Police Dept did it's investigation, this material becomes available to the public. If that's the case, then this video is no different than posting pictures of motorcycle accident related gore, or pictures of some other medical-related trauma. Let's put it this way - nothing stops the local news from splattering your despair on the airwaves in the name of generating income via viewership ratings.
Now if the video was obtained in an illegal matter, that is different. The information leak therefore would have started in the Police Dept or courts - blame someone there first before FrontSight.

[nomoreusmc]

Taped by the goverment if it's not involing an ongoing case the freedom of information act lets us watch these things! All you have to do is request it.

[Peg grinder]

If you can't get a rifle out of an old drunks hands or work a can of pepper spray maybe you just don't need to be a cop?

[CSmith56]

He updated his blog this morning.........

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sig...hooting/#video